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California Wrestling News => California Wrestling (general info) => Topic started by: AMorris on July 08, 2020, 10:19:10 am

Title: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: AMorris on July 08, 2020, 10:19:10 am
Just got the news that Stanford is dropping a bunch of sports.

I assume the pandemic has created a giant financial hole.
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: Mike Parrish on July 08, 2020, 10:32:01 am
https://news.stanford.edu/2020/07/08/athletics/
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: CCSBork on July 08, 2020, 10:35:08 am
This probably means they know we aren’t going to have a college football season this year as that is where most of their athletic departments budget comes from. I expect a bloodbath across the college sports landscape in the next couple of weeks
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: CCSRanker on July 08, 2020, 11:57:22 am
Massively bad for the sport. Certainly, an athletic program with 36 sports is hard to sustain at any level but one would've thought wrestling could avoid the first axe and not be clumped into "super niche" upper-crust sports like sailing, squash, fencing, rowing, sync swimming, etc. Somewhat boggles the mind that it would cost $200 million to sustain the 11 cut sports and even with Stanford's financial clout and elite alumni network, they're throwing in the towel.

The move is an indictment of the sport, as they've noted the trends: less D1 programs, less youth participation, less interest, etc. And add Title IX compliance ... just a shame as Stanford looked to be really making the push (outside shot at breaking into the top 10 this past season) with most everyone back for 2021.

If a resource-rich school like Stanford cuts wrestling, many others will follow.

In my line of work, I talk to a lot of endowments, especially on the private university side and most will say it's going to get messy. Such schools rely heavily on tuition $$ for their day-to-day operating budget (70%-plus) and a lot of money have been spent in recent months to upgrade all their facilities to become more Covid-compatible ... all the while, noting that they expect 10% or so of the student body not to return in the fall (taking gap years, waiting for a more "normalized" learning environment, etc.). So even schools with endowments in the multi-billions are hurting.
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: CCSBork on July 08, 2020, 01:00:24 pm
Stanford athletics has a 750-850 million dollar endowment. They get 5.5% of that per year to go towards their athletics budget. 40 million a year.

Stanford University has a 27.7 billion dollar endowment.

But they can't afford a wrestling program.

Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: AMorris on July 08, 2020, 01:45:38 pm
It's not just affording a wrestling program though. Was it Bucknell that an alumn offered to fund the program, and was told he would also have to fund 2 women's sports?

UC Davis athletics had severe financial problems in 2008, and dropped women's crew to save $1 million. Wrestling had the second highest alumni donation support, but to balance Title 9 numbers, they had to drop 4 mens sports.

Finances are an immediate issue, but for wrestling, alumni often are willing to step up. Title 9 compliance makes it a challenge.
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: CCSRanker on July 08, 2020, 02:08:36 pm
Yeah, endowments can be strange. Stanford is among the biggest and yes, they put a lot of money to work. But for some of the big endowments (Ivies, Stanford, etc.), it's like, "What's the point of being so big?" other than a d-measuring contest among elite schools and their investment offices?

If they're saving for a rainy day, well here's one right now. Stanford has stated they expect a deficit of $70 million over the next three years. That's significant but not insurmountable.

One would think the purpose of an endowment is to step in and support programs EXACTLY in the current environment, when the numbers are red. I know when it comes to university finances, it's overly-complicated with many forces at play. But for Stanford, athletics is a key part of their culture/history and an important branding tool.

It's almost as if Stanford was looking for a reason to cut down the number of athletic programs (again, 36 is ridiculous) but also cull the Title IX vulnerable or "non-performing" programs - those that don't win NCAA titles as Stanford likes to win NCAA titles. They've only won the "Director's Cup" (best overall NCAA athletic program) the past 25 years in a row.

I dunno. What's the chances Stanford builds a women's wrestling program? Maybe, they can bring back the men's side at the same time.

Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: CCSBork on July 08, 2020, 02:52:58 pm
It's not just affording a wrestling program though. Was it Bucknell that an alumn offered to fund the program, and was told he would also have to fund 2 women's sports?

UC Davis athletics had severe financial problems in 2008, and dropped women's crew to save $1 million. Wrestling had the second highest alumni donation support, but to balance Title 9 numbers, they had to drop 4 mens sports.

Finances are an immediate issue, but for wrestling, alumni often are willing to step up. Title 9 compliance makes it a challenge.

I used to blame Title 9 more than I do now. The reality is that the missions of athletics and academics aren't as married as they used to be. People used to put more value in athletics as a vehicle for developing the leaders of tomorrow. Now, its all about that bottom line. If a sport isn't generating revenue, and the vast majority don't, keeping the sport doesn't make sense to the admin types. Times change and wrestling must continue to adapt if we want a place at the table. We've lost 80% of our programs at the D1 level. We had wrestling dropped by the IOC. We are the preverbal frog in a pot of water. When will we realize that we are being cooked!!

We need to exist outside of NCAA and Athletic Department control. There is demand for NCAA Championships and some duals. Can we monetize these events and then build on this model? Is NWCA the answer? Are RTCs the answer? There has to be a way, but I am tired of people making decisions about the sport we live for who have no dog in the game. Time to be our own masters.
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: DrakeHS on July 08, 2020, 05:19:08 pm
Is the club route viable? I'm not sure I think that's the road as that flips all reliance on USA Wrestling and I'm just not sure that's the best situation either?

I'd love to see pressure applied by wrestling that it forces Stanford to keep wrestling And to satisfy their TIX they lead the charge with Women's wrestling. They just absolutely would need no financial support other than travel. With the RTC they could supplement funding I'd guess.

Lord knows they have the talent to drop more than a few NCAA All Americans in a coming season and enough of a wrestling network to rally more funds. Top 20 program with some kids that are National Title focused. I feel soo so bad for that staff. Exceptional people too.

So depressing. Can you imagine watching this and being a Head Coach for any other CA collegiate program right now? Ugh. It certainly appears to be the case CCBork that wrestling has to just get going on our own!

Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: Mike Parrish on July 08, 2020, 08:48:14 pm
It's not just affording a wrestling program though. Was it Bucknell that an alumn offered to fund the program, and was told he would also have to fund 2 women's sports?

UC Davis athletics had severe financial problems in 2008, and dropped women's crew to save $1 million. Wrestling had the second highest alumni donation support, but to balance Title 9 numbers, they had to drop 4 mens sports.

Finances are an immediate issue, but for wrestling, alumni often are willing to step up. Title 9 compliance makes it a challenge.
Or you could, you know, add women's wrestling instead.
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: NORCALI on July 10, 2020, 08:17:37 am
I wonder what it costs Stanford to house the entire football team and staff in hotels?  They need to quarantine for 2 weeks before practice can start.
Rooms can't be shared--130-150 rooms approximately.
No disrespect to the football team and their world but the timing doesn't sit well with me
 
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: gustafgrapple on July 10, 2020, 11:13:06 am
Yeah, I was just listening to the 'Short Time' podcast and the guy that they were interviewing, was talking about how football does make money, but it also costs way more than it should if athletic departments would just be fair to the other sports. Football and Basketball disproportionately take money from the other programs. Plus, I constantly hear the programs offer to fund themselves and get shut down by the admins. I guess that tennis has been really getting hammered this year with something like 50 programs getting cut...
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: CCSRanker on July 10, 2020, 01:57:13 pm
Football is the alpha of most athletic programs. They generate massive revenue (at least the more recognizable programs) and everything trickles down. Look at the highest paid state employee and it'll probably have a football coach up at top. But if you consider all the costs, maybe 10% of the college football programs actually net a positive?

Also, in Division 1, between the FBS and FCS schools (over 250 "D1" programs), they're allotted what amounts to 18,692 full scholarships. A program like Stanford gives out $6 million worth of scholarships every year (tuition/room and board, etc.) to their football players.

But it can get obscene. If you look at NCAA football programs, they typically have over 30-40 on "staff" with half being coaches. And then they usually have 100+ players on the roster, 70 who can travel on road games. Typically for a Saturday game, the team leaves on Thursday and go back home on Saturday night.

Many argue that Title IX kills wrestling programs but it's really football and administration. Having proportionality and balance between men's/women's sports in college makes sense. But with football, you start with 100 dudes and skews the ratio immediately. And over the many decades, many schools - instead of adding new women's programs to comply with Title IX - have decided it's easier just to cut men's programs.


Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: AMorris on July 10, 2020, 02:51:37 pm

...
 Having proportionality and balance between men's/women's sports in college makes sense.

How does proportionality make sense? Requiring the ratio of athletes to students for men to match that of women, with no attempt at determining whether the interest is similar?

There are three prongs to compliance with Title 9, but proportionality has become the de facto tool because it is a safe harbor in the courts. But I would think that a much larger proportion of men would like the opportunity to be involved in interscholastic sports as compared to women. Theater, dance, etc. don't count in the proportionality calculation. But interest surveys are not allowed by the EEOC.

Not to mention the fact that the proportion of college students now is approximately 60% women to 40% men (U.C. Davis is 59.3% women, 40.7% mean), which when using proportionality means that the ratio of athletes has to match this as well.

Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: CCSRanker on July 10, 2020, 03:18:41 pm
I'm just referring to the basic premise.

Before Title IX, women represented a rounding error in terms of money allocated from athletic budgets and a fraction of a school's student-athlete population. Obviously, today both have growth significantly since the early 1970s.

To me, the basic premise (girls/women should have access to sports and schools should support their programs) makes sense. Provide the same kind of opportunities and $ to both men and women programs.

But how the schools have decided to use Title IX as a tool to cut men's programs en masse is another issue altogether. The theory is "we have 500 male student-athletes and 100 female student-athletes ... let's bring in more programs to increase the number of female student-athletes and bridge that gap." The reality has been "we have 500 male student-athletes and 100 female student-athletes ... let's just shoot for 200 on both sides and call it a huge success."
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: CenCal Stallions on July 11, 2020, 07:46:05 am
And if there is a football season, with the stadium at 20% covid capacity, the income from attendance will be extremely low.
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: DrakeHS on July 11, 2020, 09:57:56 am
The dominoes start to fall. Real Woods in the transfer portal. He's an NCAA title winning talent. So too is Shane Griffith and Jaden Abas and you have to count Requir van der Merwe as a AA candidate with Nathan Traxler, Eischens and DiSario too...and the exceptional recruiting class they pulled with the likes of CA native P Ming of Elk Grove who was likely to make a move to HWT.

3 yrs from now, this team would be a national title contender

Stanford can reason this all they want, their vision is hardly about championships and far more about money for what Coach Tirapelli notes, the incredibly hilarious amount of admin necessary to run the athletics program. Something like 2 AD's (various level of athletic directors) per 1 coach. It's a failure in budgeting, that's really it.

For as prestigious as they want to appear to be, they simply can't pull some moderately high level accounting?

I think the best we can hope is the wrestling team shows they can survive with some private donations and then present having a women's team too. They did have a verbal commitment from Adeline Gray to start training there with the CA RTC. Hiring Kerry McCoy to lead the CA RTC was a fabulous move. Perhaps his connections can get some clout behind a resistance movement in favor of keeping the program.

Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: CCSBork on July 16, 2020, 02:14:12 pm
The dominoes start to fall. Real Woods in the transfer portal. He's an NCAA title winning talent. So too is Shane Griffith and Jaden Abas and you have to count Requir van der Merwe as a AA candidate with Nathan Traxler, Eischens and DiSario too...and the exceptional recruiting class they pulled with the likes of CA native P Ming of Elk Grove who was likely to make a move to HWT.

3 yrs from now, this team would be a national title contender

Stanford can reason this all they want, their vision is hardly about championships and far more about money for what Coach Tirapelli notes, the incredibly hilarious amount of admin necessary to run the athletics program. Something like 2 AD's (various level of athletic directors) per 1 coach. It's a failure in budgeting, that's really it.

For as prestigious as they want to appear to be, they simply can't pull some moderately high level accounting?

I think the best we can hope is the wrestling team shows they can survive with some private donations and then present having a women's team too. They did have a verbal commitment from Adeline Gray to start training there with the CA RTC. Hiring Kerry McCoy to lead the CA RTC was a fabulous move. Perhaps his connections can get some clout behind a resistance movement in favor of keeping the program.

There used to be the Vern Jones Wrestling Endowment. Here is a bit about Vern: https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/20513

From the article: Here's what the Pac-12 conference said of Jones' generous gift 15 years ago.

"The establishment of the operating endowment will enable the Cardinal wrestling program to travel to the most competitive events in the country, in addition to expanding its recruiting efforts and capabilities."

"When your program becomes financially self-sufficient, the coach and his staff can turn their focus to coaching, recruiting, marketing and developing a better product for everyone,' Chris Horpel, who served as Stanford wrestling head coach from 1980-2001, said. 'Coach Steve Buddie and his staff are doing an excellent job in every aspect and I am glad to have been part of this program for so many years.'"

Since the program dropping announcement, there has been no mention of this endowment. Where is the money? Wasn't this EXACT SCENARIO the reason the endowment was created?
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: djack80 on July 17, 2020, 07:18:19 am
The entire Title IX issue has really killed opportunity for a lot of men.  Here are things that make me crazy
1)  Currently, women are earning college diplomas at a rate of approx. 55% vs 45% for men.  so should men be crying about that huge gap that is only getting larger? 

2)  Men's Athletic scholarships are going mainly to football and basketball.  Granted both those sports draw the biggest crowds and money (with the big conferences) Well anyone with a brain can see that most of these athletes are bigger, faster, taller then the average size athlete.  So where are the opportunities for them.  Wrestling and most of the other "Olympic Sports" filled that void. 

Look at CA for example.  A huge number of the kids that land on the CIF podium every March have Hispanic names.  Those college opportunities for them (the normal sized ones) have vanished.  If I were Hispanic,  I would be pretty pissed.

3)  I think it is high time that football gets exempted from the Title IX formula and the rest of the men's and women's athletes get an even split on the (non revenue sports bite of the apple) 

rant complete
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: AMorris on July 19, 2020, 07:42:48 am
Freshman enrollment in many colleges has a bigger difference than that, UC Davis is now about 59.3% female and 40.7% male. Pretty dramatic when there are 50% more women enrolled as compared to men.

The entire Title IX issue has really killed opportunity for a lot of men.  Here are things that make me crazy
1)  Currently, women are earning college diplomas at a rate of approx. 55% vs 45% for men.  so should men be crying about that huge gap that is only getting larger? 

2)  Men's Athletic scholarships are going mainly to football and basketball.  Granted both those sports draw the biggest crowds and money (with the big conferences) Well anyone with a brain can see that most of these athletes are bigger, faster, taller then the average size athlete.  So where are the opportunities for them.  Wrestling and most of the other "Olympic Sports" filled that void. 

Look at CA for example.  A huge number of the kids that land on the CIF podium every March have Hispanic names.  Those college opportunities for them (the normal sized ones) have vanished.  If I were Hispanic,  I would be pretty pissed.

3)  I think it is high time that football gets exempted from the Title IX formula and the rest of the men's and women's athletes get an even split on the (non revenue sports bite of the apple) 

rant complete
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: TwoDogs on July 19, 2020, 11:58:10 am
Freshman enrollment in many colleges has a bigger difference than that, UC Davis is now about 59.3% female and 40.7% male. Pretty dramatic when there are 50% more women enrolled as compared to men.

The entire Title IX issue has really killed opportunity for a lot of men.  Here are things that make me crazy
1)  Currently, women are earning college diplomas at a rate of approx. 55% vs 45% for men.  so should men be crying about that huge gap that is only getting larger? 

2)  Men's Athletic scholarships are going mainly to football and basketball.  Granted both those sports draw the biggest crowds and money (with the big conferences) Well anyone with a brain can see that most of these athletes are bigger, faster, taller then the average size athlete.  So where are the opportunities for them.  Wrestling and most of the other "Olympic Sports" filled that void. 

Look at CA for example.  A huge number of the kids that land on the CIF podium every March have Hispanic names.  Those college opportunities for them (the normal sized ones) have vanished.  If I were Hispanic,  I would be pretty pissed.

3)  I think it is high time that football gets exempted from the Title IX formula and the rest of the men's and women's athletes get an even split on the (non revenue sports bite of the apple) 

rant complete

So, then at this point in time it kinda looks like Title IX needs to be used to close the gap for male students?  Right?
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: Mike Parrish on August 03, 2020, 03:40:35 pm
Maybe a shot at keeping the program and expanding it to include a women's program.

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2020/August/03/Keep-Stanford-Wrestling-seeks-positive-solutions-to-save-program
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: jonnob on August 03, 2020, 06:06:05 pm
Freshman enrollment in many colleges has a bigger difference than that, UC Davis is now about 59.3% female and 40.7% male. Pretty dramatic when there are 50% more women enrolled as compared to men.

The entire Title IX issue has really killed opportunity for a lot of men.  Here are things that make me crazy
1)  Currently, women are earning college diplomas at a rate of approx. 55% vs 45% for men.  so should men be crying about that huge gap that is only getting larger? 

2)  Men's Athletic scholarships are going mainly to football and basketball.  Granted both those sports draw the biggest crowds and money (with the big conferences) Well anyone with a brain can see that most of these athletes are bigger, faster, taller then the average size athlete.  So where are the opportunities for them.  Wrestling and most of the other "Olympic Sports" filled that void. 

Look at CA for example.  A huge number of the kids that land on the CIF podium every March have Hispanic names.  Those college opportunities for them (the normal sized ones) have vanished.  If I were Hispanic,  I would be pretty pissed.

3)  I think it is high time that football gets exempted from the Title IX formula and the rest of the men's and women's athletes get an even split on the (non revenue sports bite of the apple) 

rant complete

So, then at this point in time it kinda looks like Title IX needs to be used to close the gap for male students?  Right?

It is actually the opposite. One of the Title IX measurements is student body representation so if there are 60% women on campus, that means that women would need to occupy 60% of the scholarship capable varsity sports on that campus. That is one of the reasons many men's programs wrestling, gymnastics, etc have gone away over the years.
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: StanceDance1998 on September 16, 2020, 04:09:03 pm
Looks like gavin newsome is going to allow football for the pac-12. Does that mean that Stanford will all of a sudden not be at a huge budgetary shortfall? Does that mean wrestling will be re-added? Does anyone even care? There has been 2 posts on this thread since July. Makes me think that nobody here really cares if the program in the ivory tower falls. There was a lot more noise around the state when Fresno and Bakersfield dropped.
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: Rich on September 16, 2020, 10:02:58 pm
Looks like gavin newsome is going to allow football for the pac-12. Does that mean that Stanford will all of a sudden not be at a huge budgetary shortfall? Does that mean wrestling will be re-added? Does anyone even care? There has been 2 posts on this thread since July. Makes me think that nobody here really cares if the program in the ivory tower falls. There was a lot more noise around the state when Fresno and Bakersfield dropped.

On here is doesn’t do a whole lot, as we’re all fans of wrestling.  The real noise has been on Instagram and Twitter.  On instagram every time Stanford posted anything on their page, it was inundated with #keepstandfordwrestling on those posts... with up to 1000 replies.  I find it funny that the Stanford took those posts down (I can’t find them anymore).  It has quoted down some but I imagine it will definitely pick back up as the season approaches.
Title: Re: Stanford dropping wrestling (and a bunch of other sports)
Post by: TwoDogs on October 01, 2020, 11:17:31 am
Freshman enrollment in many colleges has a bigger difference than that, UC Davis is now about 59.3% female and 40.7% male. Pretty dramatic when there are 50% more women enrolled as compared to men.

The entire Title IX issue has really killed opportunity for a lot of men.  Here are things that make me crazy
1)  Currently, women are earning college diplomas at a rate of approx. 55% vs 45% for men.  so should men be crying about that huge gap that is only getting larger? 

2)  Men's Athletic scholarships are going mainly to football and basketball.  Granted both those sports draw the biggest crowds and money (with the big conferences) Well anyone with a brain can see that most of these athletes are bigger, faster, taller then the average size athlete.  So where are the opportunities for them.  Wrestling and most of the other "Olympic Sports" filled that void. 

Look at CA for example.  A huge number of the kids that land on the CIF podium every March have Hispanic names.  Those college opportunities for them (the normal sized ones) have vanished.  If I were Hispanic,  I would be pretty pissed.

3)  I think it is high time that football gets exempted from the Title IX formula and the rest of the men's and women's athletes get an even split on the (non revenue sports bite of the apple) 

rant complete

So, then at this point in time it kinda looks like Title IX needs to be used to close the gap for male students?  Right?

It is actually the opposite. One of the Title IX measurements is student body representation so if there are 60% women on campus, that means that women would need to occupy 60% of the scholarship capable varsity sports on that campus. That is one of the reasons many men's programs wrestling, gymnastics, etc have gone away over the years.

I wasnt talking about sports though.  So if 60 percent of the students are female then Title IX should be used to improve male students on campus from 40 percent to 50 percent.  If there is a disparity then that disparity should be fixed by Title IX.