The California Wrestler Forum

California Wrestling News => California Wrestling (general info) => Topic started by: 96Olympian on February 09, 2017, 01:52:06 pm

Title: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 09, 2017, 01:52:06 pm
Wrestling coaches/fans, just a couple of small details regarding the 2017 State Championships that the Wrestling Advisory Committee worked on and will implement:

Coaches seating above platform and access to platform without having to use stairs leading to the tunnel. Make sure you have your credentials to show Rabo staff.
Track wrestling will be used (TMI as backup). Hopefully Track will be posted on monitors throughout Rabo to keep wrestlers and fans updated.
Conso 4 moving to Saturday morning, will shorten Friday by an hour or so. More mats out on Day 2 to accommodate Conso 4.
Anthony Morales will be head announcer (Sandy taking the year off).
Possibly have 2 sets of 3, 5, 7 place matches (Ex. 108 & 115) wrestle until conclusion and start the next set (122 & 128, etc). Anthony doing play by play and highlighting key match ups.
Bi-annual analysis done regarding qualifiers. San Diego gained a qualifier and will now send 4. LA lost a qualifier and will send one.

Possible future topics in no particular order of importance:
Seeding top 8 wrestlers in each weight
Team Awards to top 8 teams (currently top 4)
Most pins in the least amount of time award.
Dual meet championship by divisions.
Single division with multiple team races by divisions
Please send comments/suggestions (except Crazy Lawson :))).... Thanks!

Marco Sanchez, Ca State Advisory Committee Chairman
 
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: CoachAl on February 09, 2017, 03:49:17 pm
Dr. Sanchez,
I appreciate your leadership with this matter.
Al
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: gilroyworm on February 09, 2017, 07:14:23 pm
Dr. Sanchez

  I'm not being biased because you are my principal.  You are the man!  Thank you for all your hard work and dedication to our sport.  The time you sacrifice to help our sport all while continuously improving our amazing high school and coaching our team speaks volumes about your leadership and your love for wrestling!  Thank you for all you do.  I can't wait for a coach-friendly state meet. 

  Greg Varela
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: SCWAY Lawson on February 09, 2017, 09:26:09 pm
Gregory, Stop it!  He already knows he is the man!  I consider it an honor sir that you refer to me as crazy Lawson, that is how Randy Couture's mother Sharon introduces me to people, this is Randy's crazy friend 8).  Good call on ending day 1 sooner, nice to only have a 15 hour day instead of 16 hour day (3 day event I tell you is needed).  On a serious note, Anthony has worked hard to become the voice of California wrestling, he doesn't need to play 2nd fiddle to anyone (well, maybe Sandy).  Great call having a gentleman like Anthony behind the microphone, I am a big fan and my head hurts a lot less after a day of wrestling listening to him.  Keep up the good work good Dr but you always be little Marco to me!  Kind of like the Kistler brothers calling  me Stevie and still feel the need to give me a nuggie
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: 96Olympian on February 10, 2017, 06:44:48 am
Dr. Sanchez

  I'm not being biased because you are my principal.  You are the man!  Thank you for all your hard work and dedication to our sport.  The time you sacrifice to help our sport all while continuously improving our amazing high school and coaching our team speaks volumes about your leadership and your love for wrestling!  Thank you for all you do.  I can't wait for a coach-friendly state meet. 

  Greg Varela

C 8) 8) L
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: 96Olympian on February 10, 2017, 06:46:09 am
Gregory, Stop it!  He already knows he is the man!  I consider it an honor sir that you refer to me as crazy Lawson, that is how Randy Couture's mother Sharon introduces me to people, this is Randy's crazy friend 8).  Good call on ending day 1 sooner, nice to only have a 15 hour day instead of 16 hour day (3 day event I tell you is needed).  On a serious note, Anthony has worked hard to become the voice of California wrestling, he doesn't need to play 2nd fiddle to anyone (well, maybe Sandy).  Great call having a gentleman like Anthony behind the microphone, I am a big fan and my head hurts a lot less after a day of wrestling listening to him.  Keep up the good work good Dr but you always be little Marco to me!  Kind of like the Kistler brothers calling  me Stevie and still feel the need to give me a nuggie

Ha, right on! Nuggie, extra ring and extra knuckle for Crazy Lawson  :)
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: tirapell on February 10, 2017, 01:19:53 pm

Possible future topics in no particular order of importance:
Seeding top 8 wrestlers in each weight
Team Awards to top 8 teams (currently top 4)
Most pins in the least amount of time award.
Dual meet championship by divisions.
Single division with multiple team races by divisions
Please send comments/suggestions (except Crazy Lawson).... Thanks!

Marco Sanchez, Ca State Advisory Committee Chairman

I think it's a good start Dr. Sanchez.  Thanks for the hard work.

The big-ticket items for the future IMO are things that will grow the sport.  Unfortunately, these are the most difficult & controversial.

Seeding is probably the logical future for our current format.  I don't know that teams will get that excited about 5th-8th place.  Most pins is a non-factor.  Dual meet championship would be one of the highest items on the priority list.  Multiple team races I'm not sold on, but it's a start toward allowing more to experience success.
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: tirapell on February 10, 2017, 01:25:10 pm
One thing I would add (dead serious about):

I would like to see the state (CIF) use some of the thousands of dollars they make off wrestling on "continuing education" for the future of the sport.  We should have 2-3 representatives visit other state tournaments per year to see what other states are doing to learn what's working, what's not, and how we can improve the product going forward.

Our biggest issue is that we live in a bubble and fail to capitalize on the wealth of ideas others are already using.  Not all will apply, make sense, or even be better, but "you don't know what you don't know" until you broaden your horizons.
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: RFowler on February 10, 2017, 02:07:19 pm
Please.....Please......Please add duals! Those of us that come from states that have team dual state tournaments know that this is where its at! Plus the CIF will enjoy the $$$$ end of it too! If you want to make the most money out of wrestling this is the way to do it. Now.....figuring out how it will work.....that is another story!
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: Aztec on February 10, 2017, 03:06:37 pm
Wrestling coaches/fans, just a couple of small details regarding the 2017 State Championships that the Wrestling Advisory Committee worked on and will implement:

Conso 4 moving to Saturday morning, will shorten Friday by an hour or so. More mats out on Day 2 to accommodate Conso 4.

How many mats will there be on Saturday morning?

Quote

Bi-annual analysis done regarding qualifiers. San Diego gained a qualifier and will now send 4. LA lost a qualifier and will send one.

There should be changes to the allocation of qualifiers. It would be more fair if it was done by points scored rather than medals earned. For example, two years ago El Camino Real in the LA Section finished 20th at state with 32.5 points but did not have a medalist. This meant they did absolutely nothing to help the LA section keep its second qualifier which it now lost. A fairer system would have rewarded points scored, not just medals earned. It can be done.

Quote
Possible future topics in no particular order of importance:
Seeding top 8 wrestlers in each weight

I'd be fine with this, though I think the way it is now works well.

Quote
Team Awards to top 8 teams (currently top 4)

Sounds good to me.

Quote
Most pins in the least amount of time award.

Sounds good. Didn't they used to to this or am I misremembering?

Dual meet championship by divisions.

Do it!

Quote
Single division with multiple team races by divisions

My only opposition to this it would be used as a stepping stone to multiple divisions in the state, which I think would be a tragedy.
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: SCWAY Lawson on February 10, 2017, 03:28:34 pm
We already have a state dual Championship, it is called the Clovis vs Buchanan dual.  Anyone that is feeling froggy in the Spring can call either team and challenge them.  The real problem with change is the people in the meetings.  If you have ever sat on an advisory committee or anything you find out a lot about people.  They vote for what is good for them individually, not what is best for the sport.  To borrow an Arnold Schwarzenegger line, "there are a lot of girly men" on those committees. And, please, please, please pay your T-Shirts bill.
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: ljp1946 on February 10, 2017, 10:57:42 pm
Regarding the Advisory Group-A few less Administrator's & more Coach Al's & Larry Katz's.
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: 96Olympian on February 11, 2017, 09:40:40 am
Great comments. Keep them coming.

Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: 96Olympian on February 11, 2017, 09:42:31 am
Regarding the Advisory Group-A few less Administrator's & more Coach Al's & Larry Katz's.

Ha! Administrators with wrestling experience never hurts either.
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: AMorris on February 11, 2017, 10:28:20 am


Absolutely. It's been interesting to watch the CA state meet with someone from another state, in my case Wisconsin. There are 50 different states with a wide variety of potential "best practices" we could learn from.


One thing I would add (dead serious about):

I would like to see the state (CIF) use some of the thousands of dollars they make off wrestling on "continuing education" for the future of the sport.  We should have 2-3 representatives visit other state tournaments per year to see what other states are doing to learn what's working, what's not, and how we can improve the product going forward.

Our biggest issue is that we live in a bubble and fail to capitalize on the wealth of ideas others are already using.  Not all will apply, make sense, or even be better, but "you don't know what you don't know" until you broaden your horizons.
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: 96Olympian on February 12, 2017, 07:57:43 am
Wrestling coaches/fans, just a couple of small details regarding the 2017 State Championships that the Wrestling Advisory Committee worked on and will implement:

Conso 4 moving to Saturday morning, will shorten Friday by an hour or so. More mats out on Day 2 to accommodate Conso 4.

How many mats will there be on Saturday morning? 
6-8 mats on Saturday


Quote

Bi-annual analysis done regarding qualifiers. San Diego gained a qualifier and will now send 4. LA lost a qualifier and will send one.

There should be changes to the allocation of qualifiers. It would be more fair if it was done by points scored rather than medals earned. For example, two years ago El Camino Real in the LA Section finished 20th at state with 32.5 points but did not have a medalist. This meant they did absolutely nothing to help the LA section keep its second qualifier which it now lost. A fairer system would have rewarded points scored, not just medals earned. It can be done.

Good point. 
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: 96Olympian on February 12, 2017, 07:59:40 am
One thing I would add (dead serious about):

I would like to see the state (CIF) use some of the thousands of dollars they make off wrestling on "continuing education" for the future of the sport.  We should have 2-3 representatives visit other state tournaments per year to see what other states are doing to learn what's working, what's not, and how we can improve the product going forward.

Our biggest issue is that we live in a bubble and fail to capitalize on the wealth of ideas others are already using.  Not all will apply, make sense, or even be better, but "you don't know what you don't know" until you broaden your horizons.

Great point Coach Tirapelle.  I would like to see the three day state format in Illinois.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 12, 2017, 08:03:15 am
State Duals...When??? Before sections?
Before Individual State Meet?
After Individual State meet?
Divisions based on enrollment? ..If so...three or four different sites? North (small schools)
Central Medium sized schools? South large schools...help reduce travel costs
How do teams qualify? Rankings by section?
Format? one or two days? One Saturday?

Let's hear some ideas.


Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: North Section Coach on February 12, 2017, 08:18:53 am
Matt Schumann of Orland created a plan for a state dual format that was thoughtful and brilliant about a year ago. I will look around for it.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: CommonSense on February 12, 2017, 08:21:39 am
What about interchangeable coaches passes?  It could have a hole punch at the bottom to not allow people to get into the venue but it would allow kids to be coached by the coach they were coached by all year...  my team has coaches for lower  middle and heavyweights but we only qualify 2-4 guys but then we have make a choice on which coach is in the corner the entire weekend... not really fair to the kids or the assistant coaches...  in short we could pay to get them in the building and rotate pass for coaching...

I understand the argument of to many people on the floor but with the pass being rotated it would not flood the floor and the tournament does a good job of only allowing two coaches to the floor... any way to incorporate this?
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: CoachAl on February 12, 2017, 08:31:25 am
Dr. Sanchez,

Once again, your leadership in the implementation of the many logistical changes made thus far is greatly appreciated. As you have indicated, there will be several more changes coming in the future, but will take time to integrate and fine tune once put to the test (time, scheduling, logistics, etc.).

Another area of the state championships that needs a major overhaul is the presentation of championship final. Currently, the championship final is just that, the final. Yes, we have the raised mat on the floor. There is the traditional parade of champions, award ceremonies, great matches, but one thing that is missing is it lacks the “BIG SHOWCASE” feeling; music, laser lights, fog, etc. One thing that is disturbing is a majority of the fans are still finding their seats or congregating in the top lobby area as the awards (e.g., Irv Oliner) and parade of champions is taking place. This is not good! The kids that have labored long hours, endured grueling schedules, and survived the month long grind to make it on the podium deserve a showcase final from start to finish. If anyone has had the opportunity to attend the Clovis/Buchanan dual meet, it’s not just a great match; it’s a total production (band, music, laser lights, sparklers, fog, mascot tunnels, etc.).  The atmosphere in the gym is extremely impressive.

The dialogue is open…
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: North Section Coach on February 12, 2017, 08:54:28 am
From Matt Schumann of Orland:

All teams need a route to the state tournament. Only 3 teams from each section allowed per division. The results from the state individual tournament were used as a guide to find the sections with the highest quality dual teams.

D1:
Clovis   CS   276.5
Buchanan   CS   120
Bakersfield   CS   85
Santiago/C   SS   51
El Camino Real   LA   32.5
Bellarmine   CC   31
Fountain Valley   SS   29
Bullard   CS   24

4 – CS teams (only 3 allowed), 2 – SS teams, 1 – LA team, 1 – CC team.
SF, SD, NC and SJ teams need a route to the state tournament and were assigned a local regional match.

Regionals: CC1 vrs SF1; SS2 vrs SD1; SJ1 vrs NC1
The 3 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. CS1, CS2, CS3, SS1, LA1 qualify automatically.


D2:
Poway   SD   189.5
De La Salle   NC   102
Folsom   SJ   64
Clovis North   CS   48.5
La Costa Canyon   SD   30.5
Golden Valley   CS   28
Clovis West   CS   28
Modesto   SJ   27.5

2 – SD teams, 1 – NC team, 2 – SJ teams, 3 – CS teams
SS, CC, SF and LA need a route to the state tournament and were assigned a local regional match.

Regionals: SJ1 vrs SF1; SD2 vrs LA1; SJ2 vrs CC1; CS3 vrs SS1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. SD1, NC1, CS1, CS2 qualify automatically.


D3:
Vacaville   SJ   61
Servite   SS   51.5
Ponderosa   SJ   39.5
Dinuba   CS   31
Del Oro   SJ   29
Palm Desert   SS   25
Windsor   NC   23
Christopher   CC   22

3 – SJ teams, 2 – SS teams, 1 - CS team, 1 – NC team, 1 – CC team
LA, NS, SD and OS need a route to the state tournament and were assigned a local regional match.

Regionals: NC1 vrs NS1, CC1 vrs OS1, SS2 vrs SD1, CS1 vrs LA1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. SS1, SJ1, SJ2, SJ3 qualify automatically.


D4:
San Marino   SS   128
St Johns Bosco   SS   111.5
Oakdale   SJ   70.5
Gilroy   CC   65
Selma   CS   63
Mission Oak   CS   52
Northview   SS   47
Benicia   SJ   41

3 – SS teams, 2 – SJ teams, 1 – CC team, 2 – CS teams
SD, OS, NC and NS teams need a route to the state tournament and were assigned a local regional match.

Regionals: SJ2 vrs NS1, SS3 vrs SD1, NC1 vrs CS2, OS1 vrs CC1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. SS1, SS2, CS1, SJ1 qualify automatically.

D5:
Lassen   NS   16
Monte Vista Christian   CC   16
Calvary Chapel/SA   SS   16
Corning   NS   15
Sutter   NS   15
Orland   NS   13
Palma   CC   12
Gridley   NS   10

5 - NS teams (only 3 allowed), 2 – CC teams, 1 – SS team, 
NC, SJ, SF, OS, CS and SD teams need a route to the state tournament and were assigned a local regional match.

Regionals: SS1 vrs SD1, CC2 vrs CS1, NC1 vrs OS1, SJ1 vrs SF1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. NS1, CC1, NS2, NS3 qualify automatically.


(Forfeits: Any team that intends to forfeit the dual must notify the other team no later than Tuesday)
[/quote]

---------

Revision to the original proposal:

Because a Dual State Tournament seems to have nearly 100% approval, why not add it onto this proposal:

Proposal to change the state wrestling tournament: 3/23/15

Outline of my proposal:
Part 1: Individual State Tournament by Divisions with an Overall Champion

4 Divisions

16 Wrestlers per weight per division

4 Medalist per weight

4 Team awards per division

3 day competition in 1 location: Thursday and Friday wrestle the divisions. Saturday the champion in each division advances to the 4 man bracket to find the overall champion.

Part 2: Team Duals State Tournament

5 Divisions

From present to 2020, to be wrestled the week after the Individual State Tournament
After 2020, to be wrestled the week before the Individual State Tournament

Regionals: Wednesday. Alternate home sites every year.

Tournament: Saturday.

Division 1: Open
Division 2: No more than 2500 students*
Division 3: No more than 2000 students*
Division 4: No more than 1700 students*
Division 5: No more than 1000 students*
*All boys schools will have their enrollments doubled

All teams must have a route to the state tournament,

Division 1:
Regionals:
CC1 vrs SF1; SS2 vrs SD1; SJ1 vrs NC1
The 3 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. CS1, CS2, CS3, SS1, LA1 qualify automatically.

Division 2:
Regionals:
SJ1 vrs SF1; SD2 vrs LA1; SJ2 vrs CC1; CS3 vrs SS1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. SD1, NC1, CS1, CS2 qualify automatically.

Division 3:
Regionals:
NC1 vrs NS1, CC1 vrs OS1, SS2 vrs SD1, CS1 vrs LA1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. SS1, SJ1, SJ2, SJ3 qualify automatically.

Division 4:
Regionals:
SJ2 vrs NS1, SS3 vrs SD1, NC1 vrs CS2, OS1 vrs CC1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. SS1, SS2, CS1, SJ1 qualify automatically.

Divisions 5:
Regionals:
SS1 vrs SD1, CC2 vrs CS1, NC1 vrs OS1, SJ1 vrs SF1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. NS1, CC1, NS2, NS3 qualify automatically.

(Forfeits: Any team that intends to forfeit the dual must notify the other team no later than Tuesday)
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: TD56 on February 12, 2017, 09:34:03 am
Regarding CIF Team Duals ...
One Team Per section, Per Division
That'll put 50 teams in Action
League Championships Three weeks Prior to State
Team Duals Two weeks prior to State (League and Team Duals could be switched in order of occurrence and visa versa)
Masters one week prior to State
CIF State
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: TD56 on February 12, 2017, 09:38:40 am

I would like to see the state (CIF) use some of the thousands of dollars they make off wrestling on "continuing education" for the future of the sport.  We should have 2-3 representatives visit other state tournaments per year to see what other states are doing to learn what's working, what's not, and how we can improve the product going forward.


I'm sure we could get well qualified people to volunteer taking on this task , but yes, covering their expenses would be an added bonus for these volunteers.
Title: Re: 2017 State Championships
Post by: 96Olympian on February 12, 2017, 12:43:29 pm
Dr. Sanchez,

Once again, your leadership in the implementation of the many logistical changes made thus far is greatly appreciated. As you have indicated, there will be several more changes coming in the future, but will take time to integrate and fine tune once put to the test (time, scheduling, logistics, etc.).

Another area of the state championships that needs a major overhaul is the presentation of championship final. Currently, the championship final is just that, the final. Yes, we have the raised mat on the floor. There is the traditional parade of champions, award ceremonies, great matches, but one thing that is missing is it lacks the “BIG SHOWCASE” feeling; music, laser lights, fog, etc. One thing that is disturbing is a majority of the fans are still finding their seats or congregating in the top lobby area as the awards (e.g., Irv Oliner) and parade of champions is taking place. This is not good! The kids that have labored long hours, endured grueling schedules, and survived the month long grind to make it on the podium deserve a showcase final from start to finish. If anyone has had the opportunity to attend the Clovis/Buchanan dual meet, it’s not just a great match; it’s a total production (band, music, laser lights, sparklers, fog, mascot tunnels, etc.).  The atmosphere in the gym is extremely impressive.

The dialogue is open…

I agree...Music for sure!
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: cen-cal coyotes on February 12, 2017, 12:48:49 pm
Regarding CIF Team Duals ...
One Team Per section, Per Division
That'll put 50 teams in Action
League Championships Three weeks Prior to State
Team Duals Two weeks prior to State (League and Team Duals could be switched in order of occurrence and visa versa)
Masters one week prior to State
CIF State

You would definitely need to have the duals done before individual qualifiers start.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 12, 2017, 01:05:40 pm
From Matt Schumann of Orland:

All teams need a route to the state tournament. Only 3 teams from each section allowed per division. The results from the state individual tournament were used as a guide to find the sections with the highest quality dual teams.

D1:
Clovis   CS   276.5
Buchanan   CS   120
Bakersfield   CS   85
Santiago/C   SS   51
El Camino Real   LA   32.5
Bellarmine   CC   31
Fountain Valley   SS   29
Bullard   CS   24

4 – CS teams (only 3 allowed), 2 – SS teams, 1 – LA team, 1 – CC team.
SF, SD, NC and SJ teams need a route to the state tournament and were assigned a local regional match.

Regionals: CC1 vrs SF1; SS2 vrs SD1; SJ1 vrs NC1
The 3 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. CS1, CS2, CS3, SS1, LA1 qualify automatically.


D2:
Poway   SD   189.5
De La Salle   NC   102
Folsom   SJ   64
Clovis North   CS   48.5
La Costa Canyon   SD   30.5
Golden Valley   CS   28
Clovis West   CS   28
Modesto   SJ   27.5

2 – SD teams, 1 – NC team, 2 – SJ teams, 3 – CS teams
SS, CC, SF and LA need a route to the state tournament and were assigned a local regional match.

Regionals: SJ1 vrs SF1; SD2 vrs LA1; SJ2 vrs CC1; CS3 vrs SS1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. SD1, NC1, CS1, CS2 qualify automatically.


D3:
Vacaville   SJ   61
Servite   SS   51.5
Ponderosa   SJ   39.5
Dinuba   CS   31
Del Oro   SJ   29
Palm Desert   SS   25
Windsor   NC   23
Christopher   CC   22

3 – SJ teams, 2 – SS teams, 1 - CS team, 1 – NC team, 1 – CC team
LA, NS, SD and OS need a route to the state tournament and were assigned a local regional match.

Regionals: NC1 vrs NS1, CC1 vrs OS1, SS2 vrs SD1, CS1 vrs LA1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. SS1, SJ1, SJ2, SJ3 qualify automatically.


D4:
San Marino   SS   128
St Johns Bosco   SS   111.5
Oakdale   SJ   70.5
Gilroy   CC   65
Selma   CS   63
Mission Oak   CS   52
Northview   SS   47
Benicia   SJ   41

3 – SS teams, 2 – SJ teams, 1 – CC team, 2 – CS teams
SD, OS, NC and NS teams need a route to the state tournament and were assigned a local regional match.

Regionals: SJ2 vrs NS1, SS3 vrs SD1, NC1 vrs CS2, OS1 vrs CC1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. SS1, SS2, CS1, SJ1 qualify automatically.

D5:
Lassen   NS   16
Monte Vista Christian   CC   16
Calvary Chapel/SA   SS   16
Corning   NS   15
Sutter   NS   15
Orland   NS   13
Palma   CC   12
Gridley   NS   10

5 - NS teams (only 3 allowed), 2 – CC teams, 1 – SS team, 
NC, SJ, SF, OS, CS and SD teams need a route to the state tournament and were assigned a local regional match.

Regionals: SS1 vrs SD1, CC2 vrs CS1, NC1 vrs OS1, SJ1 vrs SF1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. NS1, CC1, NS2, NS3 qualify automatically.


(Forfeits: Any team that intends to forfeit the dual must notify the other team no later than Tuesday)

---------

Revision to the original proposal:

Because a Dual State Tournament seems to have nearly 100% approval, why not add it onto this proposal:

Proposal to change the state wrestling tournament: 3/23/15

Outline of my proposal:
Part 1: Individual State Tournament by Divisions with an Overall Champion

4 Divisions

16 Wrestlers per weight per division

4 Medalist per weight

4 Team awards per division

3 day competition in 1 location: Thursday and Friday wrestle the divisions. Saturday the champion in each division advances to the 4 man bracket to find the overall champion.

Part 2: Team Duals State Tournament

5 Divisions

From present to 2020, to be wrestled the week after the Individual State Tournament
After 2020, to be wrestled the week before the Individual State Tournament

Regionals: Wednesday. Alternate home sites every year.

Tournament: Saturday.

Division 1: Open
Division 2: No more than 2500 students*
Division 3: No more than 2000 students*
Division 4: No more than 1700 students*
Division 5: No more than 1000 students*
*All boys schools will have their enrollments doubled

All teams must have a route to the state tournament,

Division 1:
Regionals:
CC1 vrs SF1; SS2 vrs SD1; SJ1 vrs NC1
The 3 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. CS1, CS2, CS3, SS1, LA1 qualify automatically.

Division 2:
Regionals:
SJ1 vrs SF1; SD2 vrs LA1; SJ2 vrs CC1; CS3 vrs SS1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. SD1, NC1, CS1, CS2 qualify automatically.

Division 3:
Regionals:
NC1 vrs NS1, CC1 vrs OS1, SS2 vrs SD1, CS1 vrs LA1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. SS1, SJ1, SJ2, SJ3 qualify automatically.

Division 4:
Regionals:
SJ2 vrs NS1, SS3 vrs SD1, NC1 vrs CS2, OS1 vrs CC1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. SS1, SS2, CS1, SJ1 qualify automatically.

Divisions 5:
Regionals:
SS1 vrs SD1, CC2 vrs CS1, NC1 vrs OS1, SJ1 vrs SF1
The 4 winners advance to the state finals on Saturday. NS1, CC1, NS2, NS3 qualify automatically.

(Forfeits: Any team that intends to forfeit the dual must notify the other team no later than Tuesday)

Great stats Coach Shoe!
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 12, 2017, 01:09:24 pm
Regarding CIF Team Duals ...
One Team Per section, Per Division
That'll put 50 teams in Action
League Championships Three weeks Prior to State
Team Duals Two weeks prior to State (League and Team Duals could be switched in order of occurrence and visa versa)
Masters one week prior to State
CIF State

You would definitely need to have the duals done before individual qualifiers start.

Good point Coach.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: CCSRanker on February 12, 2017, 06:24:48 pm
State duals will be a phenomenal showcase but with the travel, scheduling, auto-qualification, and logistics, people smarter than I need to get their brains together and figure out the process, from top-down.

For the short-term, and in the spirit of just getting the thing started, just make it a 4-division, 24-total teams event (single-day) which is invite only. Centrally-located. Open division, big, medium, and small. Six teams per division and top two seeds get first round byes. Losers in semifinal round fight for 3rd/4th.

Preserves the current, non-standardized sectional duals format (some have 'em, some don't, some uses population, some uses geography) and won't "force" teams to participate. Teams apply for spots in the event and a committee chooses the participants and seeds. 6 teams per division and top 2 seeds get first round byes.

24 teams competing in a first-year event is enough, no? Something like a Saturday:

7:30am weigh-ins

10am (use 8 mats): quarterfinals
Open: A #3 vs. #6; B #4 vs. #5
Big: C #3 vs. #6, D #4 vs. #5
Medium: E #3 vs. #6, F #4 vs. #5
Small: G #3 vs. #6, H #4 vs. #5

12n (use 8 mats): semifinals
Open: #1 vs. B winner, #2 vs. A winner
Big: #1 vs. D winner, #2 vs. C winner
Medium: #1 vs. F winner, #2 vs. E winner
Small: #1 vs. H winner, #2 vs. G winner

2pm (use 4 mats): consolation finals (semifinal losers)

4pm (use 4 mats): championship finals

6pm: awards ceremony

Half the participating teams go home with trophies and all competing wrestlers get state participation pins.

Start the event small - a touch exclusive. It'll take a couple years to figure out what works and what doesn't - so instead of jumping in with both feet, maybe toe the water a little the first time out and then incorporate lessons learned in subsequent years (if there's capacity to add teams or re-engineer sectional duals or use regional-type events, so be it).

I like Matt's idea of having an open division but I'd say start with 4 divisions (whatever population breakdown but effectively open, large, medium and small) and less teams. Again, once the event can prove its legitimacy and widespread adoption (teams commit and show up with A line-ups), then expand as necessary.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: cen-cal coyotes on February 12, 2017, 06:36:02 pm


Half the participating teams go home with trophies and all competing wrestlers get state participation pins.

Not the biggest deal but what about patches, just like individual state?
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 12, 2017, 06:57:45 pm
State duals will be a phenomenal showcase but with the travel, scheduling, auto-qualification, and logistics, people smarter than I need to get their brains together and figure out the process, from top-down.

For the short-term, and in the spirit of just getting the thing started, just make it a 4-division, 24-total teams event (single-day) which is invite only. Centrally-located. Open division, big, medium, and small. Six teams per division and top two seeds get first round byes. Losers in semifinal round fight for 3rd/4th.

Preserves the current, non-standardized sectional duals format (some have 'em, some don't, some uses population, some uses geography) and won't "force" teams to participate. Teams apply for spots in the event and a committee chooses the participants and seeds. 6 teams per division and top 2 seeds get first round byes.

24 teams competing in a first-year event is enough, no? Something like a Saturday:

7:30am weigh-ins

10am (use 8 mats): quarterfinals
Open: A #3 vs. #6; B #4 vs. #5
Big: C #3 vs. #6, D #4 vs. #5
Medium: E #3 vs. #6, F #4 vs. #5
Small: G #3 vs. #6, H #4 vs. #5

12n (use 8 mats): semifinals
Open: #1 vs. B winner, #2 vs. A winner
Big: #1 vs. D winner, #2 vs. C winner
Medium: #1 vs. F winner, #2 vs. E winner
Small: #1 vs. H winner, #2 vs. G winner

2pm (use 4 mats): consolation finals (semifinal losers)

4pm (use 4 mats): championship finals

6pm: awards ceremony

Half the participating teams go home with trophies and all competing wrestlers get state participation pins.

Start the event small - a touch exclusive. It'll take a couple years to figure out what works and what doesn't - so instead of jumping in with both feet, maybe toe the water a little the first time out and then incorporate lessons learned in subsequent years (if there's capacity to add teams or re-engineer sectional duals or use regional-type events, so be it).

I like Matt's idea of having an open division but I'd say start with 4 divisions (whatever population breakdown but effectively open, large, medium and small) and less teams. Again, once the event can prove its legitimacy and widespread adoption (teams commit and show up with A line-ups), then expand as necessary.

Much appreciated perspective Mr. Cho. So if we had to propose a time frame to CIF, we are looking at first week of February?
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 12, 2017, 06:58:49 pm


Half the participating teams go home with trophies and all competing wrestlers get state participation pins.

Not the biggest deal but what about patches, just like individual state?

Definitely negotiable.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: CCSRanker on February 12, 2017, 07:10:03 pm
The timing is the rough part, as various league finals, sectional duals, division tournaments, etc. never align. In the NCAA, the multi-division duals are held in January (!) and for D1, it's held a month before the NCAA tournament - and still not perfect participation.

This year, looks like 7 of the 10 sections have their Masters tournament on Feb. 24/25. LA City, Oakland, and SF have it a week earlier. Wouldn't seem too difficult to mandate all sections follow the same date for this qualifying event.

If that's possible, how viable is it to push the individual state tournament a week into March - so everyone gets two weeks gap between Masters and state ... and those in play for the state duals have the extra weekend to compete for those titles? So this year, it would have been Masters Feb. 24/25, state duals March 4, and state individuals on March 10-11 ... or is that just too much?

I remember reading about the CIF wanting to start/end the athletic calendar earlier ...
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: cen-cal coyotes on February 12, 2017, 07:24:05 pm
One concern is that for the students that wrestle in all of the individual qualifiers and also the team duals, they are forced to have an extra weigh in compared to the students that wrestle in only the individuals and not the duals. To some it may not be a big deal but to others the validity of our tournaments are completely gone. imo
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 13, 2017, 09:09:02 am
The timing is the rough part, as various league finals, sectional duals, division tournaments, etc. never align. In the NCAA, the multi-division duals are held in January (!) and for D1, it's held a month before the NCAA tournament - and still not perfect participation.

This year, looks like 7 of the 10 sections have their Masters tournament on Feb. 24/25. LA City, Oakland, and SF have it a week earlier. Wouldn't seem too difficult to mandate all sections follow the same date for this qualifying event.

If that's possible, how viable is it to push the individual state tournament a week into March - so everyone gets two weeks gap between Masters and state ... and those in play for the state duals have the extra weekend to compete for those titles? So this year, it would have been Masters Feb. 24/25, state duals March 4, and state individuals on March 10-11 ... or is that just too much?

I remember reading about the CIF wanting to start/end the athletic calendar earlier ...

Good points to bring up with the CIF. Will do for sure. thanks for the analysis.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: CasaCoach on February 13, 2017, 09:27:58 am
First Weekend Feb. ,Section duals  for those sections that have them.

Second Weekend Feb.  State Duals

3rd weekend League

4th Divisional

1st weekend in March Masters

2nd Weekend in March Indiv. State

I know there's talk of moving everything back a week...but this is how I see it playing out with State duals.

Also Like the idea of a selection committee picking 4-5 divisions based on enrollment, and perhaps an open division like football.  Section Dual Champs get an automatic birth. 

Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 13, 2017, 09:47:25 am
One concern is that for the students that wrestle in all of the individual qualifiers and also the team duals, they are forced to have an extra weigh in compared to the students that wrestle in only the individuals and not the duals. To some it may not be a big deal but to others the validity of our tournaments are completely gone. imo

Always a concern when adding an event!
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: mrfc1954 on February 13, 2017, 03:19:17 pm
Just a question. Does anyone know if any state has their State Duals during Christmas break? Since this would be a volunteer tournament and not mandatory, wouldn't this time frame satisfy not interfering with all of the schedules that all 10 sections currently have?
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 13, 2017, 04:34:01 pm
Just a question. Does anyone know if any state has their State Duals during Christmas break? Since this would be a volunteer tournament and not mandatory, wouldn't this time frame satisfy not interfering with all of the schedules that all 10 sections currently have?
Thats a great question! Im thinking that may be too soon in the season??? Anyone want to weigh in on that?
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: Steve Strange on February 13, 2017, 04:51:29 pm
Considering fall sports, weight management, etc.  Seems to be to early.

Firsts weekend in Feb or last weekend in January sounds like the best fit.  I don't think it's possible for many teams to keep kids wrestling after they get put out of the individual post season.     
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: SCWAY Lawson on February 13, 2017, 04:57:42 pm
I heard a rumor that as soon as the Central Section commits to doing duals the state will follow.  I actually just made that rumor up but it seems true and logical to me.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: schoene on February 13, 2017, 06:18:29 pm
I think that the idea of state duals is awesome. But I cannot see the CIF allowing the State wrestling meet a week later than it currently is happening. I know that the fall sports schedules are already being pushed back a week or two according to what I hear through my football contacts to minimize the fall sports impact upon the winter sports. If you had the wrestling state meet the 2nd or 3rd weekend in March, it would screw over the spring sports. And if you are going to separate the state into divisions with multiple state meets, how do you have your section or subsection meets that traditionally happen in February? T
he logistics of these proposals is going to be fun to work out.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 13, 2017, 06:29:40 pm
Considering fall sports, weight management, etc.  Seems to be to early.

Firsts weekend in Feb or last weekend in January sounds like the best fit.  I don't think it's possible for many teams to keep kids wrestling after they get put out of the individual post season.     

This appears to be the optimum time to implement. How would SJ adjust their duals?
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 13, 2017, 06:32:19 pm
I think that the idea of state duals is awesome. But I cannot see the CIF allowing the State wrestling meet a week later than it currently is happening. I know that the fall sports schedules are already being pushed back a week or two according to what I hear through my football contacts to minimize the fall sports impact upon the winter sports. If you had the wrestling state meet the 2nd or 3rd weekend in March, it would screw over the spring sports. And if you are going to separate the state into divisions with multiple state meets, how do you have your section or subsection meets that traditionally happen in February? T
he logistics of these proposals is going to be fun to work out.

The football post-season now season extends to mid-December and the basketball post-season into late March, so there is precedent in other sports.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: CasaCoach on February 14, 2017, 07:09:45 am
Right now the state NorCal/SoCal Regionals for Basketball are the weekend of March 18th with the state championship happining the week of March 25th. 

Second week in March doesnt seem too bad to have wrestling over by.

I don't see how CIF could argue an additional week when Hoops goes so long.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: jimshoe2 on February 14, 2017, 07:18:15 am
Just a question. Does anyone know if any state has their State Duals during Christmas break? Since this would be a volunteer tournament and not mandatory, wouldn't this time frame satisfy not interfering with all of the schedules that all 10 sections currently have?

Pennsylvania had their state duals this past weekend (Feb 9-11) with a preliminary round held on Feb. 6.  I believe their regional tournament (which would be like our CIF) was held the week before.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: CCSRanker on February 14, 2017, 08:17:05 am
An important step to legitimizing the state duals is to lock down a set date later in the season - holding it Feb/March reinforces a "postseason" feel. Holding it in Dec or Jan definitely provides more flexibility but IMO, something will be lacking.

Ultimately, the state duals should be treated as a BIG deal - it should be highly disruptive as it would markedly change our state's tournament format by adding a team competition. I mean, 44 years of single division individual tournament ... now, implementation of a 3/4/5 division team competition? That's a seismic shift in CA wrestling - and a very positive one at that.

So yup, it will require scheduling calculus, compromise, and toe-stepping ... but gotta break some eggs to make a state title omelette.

If the wrestling season can add another week into March, it solves a lot of issues. Any idea what steps are necessary to push for this?
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: dmo171 on February 14, 2017, 08:41:03 am
A lot of kids are at or close to 40 matches before section duals, league, divisions, masters etc. ,does it matter?
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: CasaCoach on February 14, 2017, 08:42:32 am
Early February makes Sense... two weeks of Section then State duals, before the individual campaigns.

Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: CasaCoach on February 14, 2017, 08:43:23 am
Those count as post season and do not count towards the 40 match rule.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: mustangcoach on February 14, 2017, 09:53:55 am
Just looking at what the SJS does and how it could be modified and wouldn't extend the season at all or add another weigh in.  Hopefully it makes sense:

Dates from this year                 Current Format                        Modified for State Duals
1/25                                       League Dual                    Final League Dual (add a tri dual to cut out one dual)
2/1                                         Final League Dual            SJS Duals – League champs only.  Hosted by rotating leagues with divisions in separate locations.  Around a 4 team bracket
2/4                                         SJS Duals                            State Duals
2/11                                      League Tournament            League Tournament

- Doesn't extend the season further into March
- Having leagues create a tri dual cuts out 1 weigh in....add 1 for the state dual you get a wash on the total number of weigh ins for the season.



Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 14, 2017, 09:59:32 am
Just a question. Does anyone know if any state has their State Duals during Christmas break? Since this would be a volunteer tournament and not mandatory, wouldn't this time frame satisfy not interfering with all of the schedules that all 10 sections currently have?

Pennsylvania had their state duals this past weekend (Feb 9-11) with a preliminary round held on Feb. 6.  I believe their regional tournament (which would be like our CIF) was held the week before.

Looks like 2 Divisions, 20 teams contested Monday through Saturday during the same week.
http://www.piaa.org/news/details.aspx?ID=3522

Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: jimshoe2 on February 14, 2017, 10:14:21 am
Just looking at what the SJS does and how it could be modified and wouldn't extend the season at all or add another weigh in.  Hopefully it makes sense:

Dates from this year                 Current Format                        Modified for State Duals
1/25                                       League Dual                    Final League Dual (add a tri dual to cut out one dual)
2/1                                         Final League Dual            SJS Duals – League champs only.  Hosted by rotating leagues with divisions in separate locations.  Around a 4 team bracket
2/4                                         SJS Duals                            State Duals
2/11                                      League Tournament            League Tournament

- Doesn't extend the season further into March
- Having leagues create a tri dual cuts out 1 weigh in....add 1 for the state dual you get a wash on the total number of weigh ins for the season.

As far as other states, if you look at Pennsylvania, those wrestlers have to make weight (or weigh in) 3-days in a row for both team championships and individual championships (Thursday-Friday-Saturday)
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: philee on February 14, 2017, 11:51:25 am
If state duals are added to the current schedule the CIF should pay all expenses. All teams making the trip should be compensated. Adding to the Coaches work load, they should be paid by the state.  People forget most coaches dont coach for the money, it is the love of the sport.  Any coaching staff that qualifies should get 1k to split between their staff.  We who love the sport would not hesitate to approve this.

No school would be left behind for lack of funds. JMO

Lee
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: cen-cal coyotes on February 14, 2017, 12:24:28 pm
That would be nice. Do any other sports get reimbursed from CIF for team state championship births?
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 14, 2017, 02:39:43 pm
If state duals are added to the current schedule the CIF should pay all expenses. All teams making the trip should be compensated. Adding to the Coaches work load, they should be paid by the state.  People forget most coaches dont coach for the money, it is the love of the sport.  Any coaching staff that qualifies should get 1k to split between their staff.  We who love the sport would not hesitate to approve this.

No school would be left behind for lack of funds. JMO

Lee

The CIF doesn't pay coaches stipends. They do reimburse for travel/food for traditional team sports ONLY for state level events: Football, Volleyball, Basketball......not Track & Field, Swimming & Diving, Golf, Cross-Country, Wrestling.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: sdmatfan on February 14, 2017, 09:35:21 pm
I am trying to figure out why there is the need to want to extend the season to add state duals? Our sport is so long and grueling as it is, eliminating a week in the season would make things easy and allow the adding of state duals.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: cen-cal coyotes on February 14, 2017, 10:10:36 pm
The actual finished proposal does not include extending the season. whew
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 15, 2017, 04:07:01 am
The actual finished proposal does not include extending the season. whew


It doesn't. It actually places the event about where other states and college/universities are at.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: SCWAY Lawson on February 15, 2017, 06:10:24 am
Can't believe nobody would bite on my comment about the Central Section not having a dual championship (especially you Adam 8)).   In all seriousness, having a state dual championship would add two weekends to the grind called the Central Section because they would  have to have a Central Championship to determine who would go.  A state dual championship is not the answer to solving our fan base problems.   
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 15, 2017, 06:29:03 am
Can't believe nobody would bite on my comment about the Central Section not having a dual championship (especially you Adam 8)).   In all seriousness, having a state dual championship would add two weekends to the grind called the Central Section because they would  have to have a Central Championship to determine who would go.  A state dual championship is not the answer to solving our fan base problems.   
The format proposed is combo Invitational and petition Crazy Lawson....no extra qualifier and no extension of season proposed.  I did see your fake news post a page or two ago and also thought Coach Tirrapelle was going to roast you good. There's still time :)
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: SCWAY Lawson on February 15, 2017, 07:14:22 am
Well sir, that would be a shift in what CIF has always done.  I proposed several years ago the we have an Open Division and Varsity Division for our CIF Duals like dance and cheer does.  Open being the stud buzzards and the Varsity being the not so stud buzzards.   I was told CIF offers championships, not invitationals!  Must qualify!  It is not a real state championship unless there is a process you must go through to get there--ie, see the process for wrestling in the individual state championship.  If it is just a process of selecting the best teams how about moving the Doc B to a 1 day Saturday event and have State Dual Invitational Championship on Friday with the best 8 teams for each division.  I guarantee if somebody jumps on the ball and starts a real dual championship CIF will jump on it to take it away in a year.

laters
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: tirapell on February 15, 2017, 07:46:47 am
Can't believe nobody would bite on my comment about the Central Section not having a dual championship (especially you Adam 8)).   In all seriousness, having a state dual championship would add two weekends to the grind called the Central Section because they would  have to have a Central Championship to determine who would go.  A state dual championship is not the answer to solving our fan base problems.   
The format proposed is combo Invitational and petition Crazy Lawson....no extra qualifier and no extension of season proposed.  I did see your fake news post a page or two ago and also thought Coach Tirrapelle was going to roast you good. There's still time :)

Show me in writing from the CIF and we'll absolutely add a 9th and 10th date against Buchanan.  But I'm from Missouri, you've gotta SHOW ME! (not really but I wish I were as I love that line)

And just in case you thought I was exaggerating...
Zinkin
Doc Buchanan
Dual
Mission San Jose
League
Valley
Masters
State
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: SCWAY Lawson on February 15, 2017, 08:11:32 am
I actually am!  Or at least my father is--Licking, Missouri in the middle of the Mark Twain National Forest!  I'm just saying,  CIF state championships should not be on a invitational bases.  We all know Clovis and Buchanan are the two best teams in the state by far, If we are going to have a championship on invitation or petition let's just call your dual each year the dual state championship---based on merit I don't think anyone can complain.  I just get really sick of everybody acting like duals are going to save wrestling.   Our CIF duals, when a team loses they go home, nobody sticks around to watch other duals.    We all know who the best dual teams in the state are, if you are one of those teams it is easy enough to call and get a dual (except Poway_-they only like to beat up on San Diego Schools).   Don't complain about wrestling Buchanan 10 times a year, giggle and know it makes you better.  chat soon
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: cen-cal coyotes on February 15, 2017, 08:53:14 am
Lawson you woke him up by talking Doc B. Are you against dual championships altogether? Want it done another way? Nobody knows what will actually save wrestling but whats been going on isnt exactly keeping college programs around in California. I understand that you do not like the invitation part. Are there any individual sports (tennis, golf etc) that are also only one division and have a team state championship tourny? Im not sure if anyone else is doing it and how they are doing it if so. Cross country has team titles because their state championships are ran by division already. I can see extending the wrestling season but imho i wouldnt put the duals right in the middle of the individual qualifiers.

I hear the famous Oklahoma Joe's BBQ in Kansas City shut down, they showed me the best Z-Man bbq sandwich you can imagine.

Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: legs2win on February 15, 2017, 09:03:16 am
I'm lost in thought after next  season our season  was starting 2 weeks earlier and ending 2 weeks earlier so when would the duals  take place
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: SCWAY Lawson on February 15, 2017, 09:06:39 am
Cen-Cal   Try Arthur Bryant's---even better~
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: cen-cal coyotes on February 15, 2017, 09:09:05 am
Hi May I help You! I like that place too, we went to all of them ha
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: CCSRanker on February 15, 2017, 09:35:54 am
First off, Joe's KC BBQ. Don't be deterred by the petro.

Next, IMO, state duals will help CA HS wrestling - save? Not sure many folks would tout that.

Invite, qualification, hybrid - that's a tough nut to crack. Ideally, it would be qualification-based but then ALL sections must set up some kind of sectional duals series with proper population-based philosophy and scheduling. Is that feasible?

And then, would we have auto-qualifiers from EVERY section, Oakland and SF included? Also, a qualifier system typically imposes limits to # of qualifiers from each section, which would undermine the strength of certain areas (Central, Southern) who deserve larger representation in any state-level event.

Plenty of logistics to work out.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: Cougars Coach (AKA-Gabe S) on February 15, 2017, 11:39:50 am
Would there be penalties for those that would opt out or not show up with their best possible team? I would fear that if a team/coach doesn't think they can win, will just "save" their athletes for individual post season. You see it at the college level and we have all seen it at some point too.

Not sure it would "save" the sport but can't hurt with fan bases. I have been apart of that in the SS with the Dias they have. I know t was divisional but we grew a fan base, support for the school, and also had better turnout from students wanting to participate.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: SCWAY Lawson on February 15, 2017, 11:43:35 am
I honestly don't care, I don't have a dog in that fight.  With that being said, I just find it ironic that people are always talking about the grind of a wrestling season, the grind of the qualifying process for the state meet, the grind of making weight 4 weeks in a row, etc and also want to add duals into the mix.  Here is my suggestion, have the state duals the weekend before the state championship, and invite teams to petition in and let the state committee decide who makes it and who does not make it.   You could easily justify having 2,3,4,5,6, 7 divisions if the purpose is to give more teams the opportunity to be a state champion, better publicity around the state  for the 7 new champs and runners up.  "ALL" sections of the state would simply have to move their state qualifying tournament back maybe 1 week (or two weeks before the end of the state individual championships).  What I don't like about messing with a date in January is having the championship on a major tournament date that already exist--Doc B, 5 counties, Temecula, Canyon Springs in the South and I'm sure there are some great tournaments late in the year up North (Mission San Jose?), it would be a shame to ruin one of those tournaments.  I would suggest 8 man brackets, maybe advertise, who wants to wrestle in the big boy State Dual championship---not sure how many would want to go wrestle Clovis, Buchanan, Poway, Bakersfield, Del Oro, Vacaville, Oakdale, Gilroy,  etc,etc.   Then take applications for the small schools   Selma, Dinuba, Northview, etc,etc etc.

I drove to the Clovis vs. Buchanan dual this year and am glad I did.  it was a 10 hour round trip on a school night and I made back in time for school the next day.  I am glad I went and it was spectacular and it made me excited that high schools like those still exist---great show.  Would I go back?  Probably not unless it was on a Friday night.

Just define the real purpose of adding duals and be honest about it.   
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: SCWAY Lawson on February 15, 2017, 11:46:37 am
Gabe,

I watched your team win the duals against Valencia before I really knew you.  Best part of that duals was Trey or one of your kids throwing you after the match was over.  Don't be confused about fan base,  me and my wife, 15 Valencia parents and about 30 from Bloomington were in attendance.   
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: christianholiday on February 15, 2017, 01:17:42 pm
I've wanted to see a dual meet championship for years.  Oregon has one that is recognized by everyone as championships although (I believe) not recognized by the OSAA - The Oregon Classic.

Instead of running our immensely popular Esperanza Ladies tournament (typically Jan 21ish), we will host the 'California Classic'. 
Top 24 teams Boys as of Dec 1 rankings will be invited.
Top ?? teams Girls as of Dec 1 ranking  will be invited.
Will be Fri/Sat. 
Location: Anaheim Convention Center or Pauly Pavilion (UCLA) - once your team is out go to Knott's or Disneyland or Beach. 
Places 1-6.
Y'all are officially invited.
(Now, can we go back to posts and rants about Trump and Hilary so we all don't lose friendships over this?)
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: cen-cal coyotes on February 15, 2017, 01:24:36 pm
Gees you could of saved us 5 pages if u said this earlier lol. I honestly don't think anyone is losing friends over this. It's just nice to know that our voices are being heard by someone that is on a panel. If nothing I favor happens Im not losing any sleep over it. Its just cool to see where everyone is on ideas and of course nobody can make everyone happy.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: SCWAY Lawson on February 16, 2017, 06:46:10 am
Christian has not looked at prices to get into the Anaheim Convention Center, they told me bring your $50,000 cashiers check deposit and we will give you a tour!
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: 96Olympian on February 19, 2017, 07:10:41 pm
Wrestling coaches, athletes, fans and families!
This time of the year is is what wrestling fans live for at all levels---Youth, middle school, high school and college wrestling!!! League, section, state, national titles on the line in the next few months.
Thanks for your input, comments, suggestions, humor and perspective regarding the topic of state dual championships. More to come on this and other topics. Stay tuned.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: Que Pasa! on February 20, 2017, 08:13:55 pm
I'm not sure if this was stated in an earlier post or not, but if the state moved to divisions for the individual tournament, there will be no need for a masters tournament.  This will free up 1 weekend for a state dual championship...  Now you can have a divisional dual and individual tournament state championship team.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: smelsfshee on February 20, 2017, 09:13:06 pm
I'm not sure if this was stated in an earlier post or not, but if the state moved to divisions for the individual tournament, there will be no need for a masters tournament.  This will free up 1 weekend for a state dual championship...  Now you can have a divisional dual and individual tournament state championship team.
Remember...the reason for focusing on state duals is so we stop debating divisions.
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: Que Pasa! on February 21, 2017, 06:42:53 am
I'm not sure if this was stated in an earlier post or not, but if the state moved to divisions for the individual tournament, there will be no need for a masters tournament.  This will free up 1 weekend for a state dual championship...  Now you can have a divisional dual and individual tournament state championship team.
Remember...the reason for focusing on state duals is so we stop debating divisions.

Just out of curiosity, why do you feel having a one division individual state championship is better than a multi division state championship?
Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: Murphy on February 21, 2017, 07:11:53 am
Que Pasa Amigo!   That question is for another thread.

Title: Re: State Championships DUALS
Post by: Aztec on February 21, 2017, 07:53:02 am
I'm not sure if this was stated in an earlier post or not, but if the state moved to divisions for the individual tournament, there will be no need for a masters tournament.  This will free up 1 weekend for a state dual championship...  Now you can have a divisional dual and individual tournament state championship team.
Remember...the reason for focusing on state duals is so we stop debating divisions.

Just out of curiosity, why do you feel having a one division individual state championship is better than a multi division state championship?

smelsfshee wants a multi division individual state championship so I'll answer your question.

(Murphy, if there's another thread this should be in, I'll post this there, but in the meantime I'll answer the question that was asked)

To preface this, any talk of divisions must include a discussion of what states California is most like in terms of wrestling culture. Often, the people that support divisions look at states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Iowa, etc, where there are divisions and think (incorrectly, in my view) that their wrestling culture is partly dependent upon the divisional format of their high school state tournament. I think the most relevant states to compare California to are our surrounding western states—Nevada, Arizona, Oregon, Washington. In terms of wrestling culture, I think we are far more like our neighboring states than we are like the midwest.

To give just one example of this, there are roughly 500 high schools with wrestling in Ohio. The farthest schools from Columbus (the site of their state championships) is under 3 hours away. Because of the geographic proximity of so many wrestling programs to Columbus, I don't think it's a good comparison to look at Ohio and say, "Look how awesome their divisional state championships are. If California had divisions, it could be that awesome as well."

Rather, if we want to see a more accurate picture of what divisions would look like in California we should look to our nearby states.

I lived in Arizona (where they have divisions) for over a decade and the single division we have in California is vastly superior.

Here are my main reasons:

1. It unites us as a wrestling community.
We care about each other more because we compete against each other to qualify for and earn medals at state. I care more about places like Selma, Brawley, Orland, Vacaville, Gilroy, etc, because of the one division we have.

2. It offers best matchups when the stakes are the highest.
I love tournaments like the Doc B, but I don't want to see the marquee matchups in the state at the Doc B. I want to see them in the state quarterfinals, semifinals, and finals. If we had divisions, we'd never see matchups like this at state: Gilroy vs. Clovis; Selma vs James Logan; Northview vs Bakersfield; Poway vs. Buchanan; etc. These matchups are part of the fabric of wrestling history in California and I think it would be a tragedy to do away with them at the state meet.

3. There's no evidence that divisions are growing wrestling better in Arizona, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington (the states most like us in terms of wrestling culture).
Growing the sport is typically the justification for moving to divisions. If it's true that division will grow the sport in California, then it should be growing the sport in our surrounding western states. Is it? Does wrestling get more media exposure in these states? Do they get more administrative support? Do they have a higher percentage of kids that wrestle? Do they have more fans? Is there a better wrestling culture there? And even if some of these things are true, do we know that it's the divisional format that causes these things?